Podcast Producer & Writer Matt Fondiler

00:00
Speaker 1
I made a decision. I'll face the sunniest side head on. I had a vision of what it might be like to reach. What's up, everybody? Welcome to our very special Thursday episode with special guests. And our special guest today is an old friend of ours, Matt Fondelier. I was going to say Matt the porcelain punisher.

00:29
Speaker 2
Yeah, you almost did. Anyway, that's okay. Hey, what's up, guys?

00:34
Speaker 1
Good to see you. We miss you, Matt. I have to say, I miss, you know, we. I mean, he was Adam's assistant, and I leaned on Matt for a lot of things, and you being gone is like a whole. It took a long time for me to recover, but, yeah, I miss you. And I miss you guys face at the studio.

01:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's been quite a change. I will say. It's hard to believe it's been almost two years. This April will be two full years. Oh, my time. Kind of. Obviously, I look back on my experience with the whole Corolla crew very fondly, and it was a little weird starting over in Austin, but I have to say, my wife and I absolutely love it out here. And it was a big change, but it was a great change. I'm really happy that I did it.

01:29
Speaker 1
Well, we're going to get into some really good, juicy stuff about what Matt's working on, because he's working on a lot of things that sound very interesting to Stephanie and I, but just briefly, how is. I'm curious, is it mean, have you.

01:45
Speaker 2
Either of you guys ever been here?

01:46
Speaker 1
No, but I really want to.

01:49
Speaker 2
So, Austin, you know, the downtown area is a big college town and the very hip. Lots of bars and restaurants, know, busy nightlife. That's not necessarily what my wife and I are into. Maybe like going out to bars and restaurants. We're not really hitting the clubs or anything, but it's nice to have that kind of downtown area. And we're about 15 minutes south of downtown. And when you go north of downtown, it's a lot more built out. Lots of buildings and construction zones. But in south Austin, that's where they have the keep Austin weird. It's very much like Silver Lake or Echo park and just lots of art community. Very dog friendly. Big, beautiful trees everywhere. Most of the bars and restaurants are just on these multi acre, beautiful picnic areas. You can bring the dogs and let them run around.

02:42
Speaker 2
And our property that we're still renting, but we moved to a place that's on a half acre with a creek in the back, and it's cheaper than what I had out there gas is like 250 out here. Just the general cost of living is a lot lower. But the personality of the city is very reminiscent of kind of what I left when I lived in Pasadena or village like. It doesn't really feel like what I thought Texas was going to feel like, but it's know.

03:14
Speaker 1
Okay, wow, that sounds great. I'm very happy for you. Very happy. Well, let's get into what were talking about before went on air about the shows that you're producing, that you're doing. Yeah.

03:27
Speaker 3
Can you tell us, too, when you first got there, were you going to produce podcasts? What were you looking to do?

03:35
Speaker 2
I mean, I just assumed that I would continue producing podcasts just because I did that for Adam for what ended up being twelve years.

03:44
Speaker 1
Wow.

03:44
Speaker 2
And there's a few podcast networks out here, and I just sort of felt like I'm fucking hot shit. He isn't going to want to hire me. And that was not the reality. Just really had a hard time finding anything, to be totally honest.

03:59
Speaker 1
Is it competitive podcasting market?

04:04
Speaker 2
I think that it is. Certainly if you're in my position, where you just are like an organized person who has good interpersonal relationships, that is apparently not as hard to find as.

04:14
Speaker 1
I thought it might.

04:17
Speaker 2
I'm Kaylin can attest to this, too. We have a certain set of knowledge of engineering and editing, and that kind of comes in handy. But my experience has been, people want to know if you're like a video editor. And I did a little bit of video editing in high school and college, but I'm basically an audio guy. And so it's been a bit of a learning curve for me to how to learn how to do video content, even. I'm sure your guys'show has a video component to it. So I think that was sort of the skill that I was lacking in a little bit, but I have been schmoozing quite a bit over the last year.

04:53
Speaker 2
I didn't tell you guys this off air, but I got a gig I actually just wrapped working as a story producer on a documentary about this stand up comedian named Matt Rife, who's been in the headlines lately.

05:05
Speaker 3
Yes, he has.

05:06
Speaker 2
So this production company out here, I've been trying to work for them for like a year, and the guy who runs this company finally got this project with a comedian and asked if I wanted to come on board and basically help them figure out the story that was within all of the footage that they captured. And that, to me, ended up being like a dream job. I loved every minute of it, and it's really close to what I do for the true crime stuff, which is kind of just becoming an expert on a particular story and just consuming as much material as I can and then trying to tell that story.

05:42
Speaker 1
Right.

05:43
Speaker 2
If that makes sense.

05:43
Speaker 1
Yeah, makes sense.

05:44
Speaker 3
Is it a Matt rife puff piece?

05:48
Speaker 2
It probably would be a little bit, just because he's on top of the world right now, and he has a sold out world tour for the next several years. So the whole idea would be kind of following him as he's on his rise.

06:00
Speaker 3
But is the backlash going to be included?

06:03
Speaker 2
I think so, yeah. We definitely were incorporating that because it's all real reactions to what's happening, too.

06:11
Speaker 1
Documentary on him.

06:14
Speaker 2
Yeah. And to kind of circle back to what you were saying. So that came within the last few months, but pretty much for the last year, I just leaned on my creative writing. I did a lot of sorting scale episodes, and I ended up through a connection that we all know and love. Gary Smith, through him, got put in touch with a couple of defense attorneys that were looking to start their own podcast, and I kind of became their producer. So the last year, I've been producing the true crime shows, producing the lawyer show. Me and Kaylin and Gary and Chris and Dawson, we all still do the water cooler two to three times a week. And then this other follow doc project.

06:59
Speaker 1
It'S been a busy for you, Matt. I'm so happy for you.

07:05
Speaker 3
You're so busy, busy.

07:08
Speaker 1
So tell us about the true crime podcast.

07:13
Speaker 3
The lawyer one.

07:14
Speaker 2
Yes, the lawyer one. Yeah. Okay. So this wonderful attorney on the west coast, her name is Sarah Azari. She is a criminal defense attorney, and she started following, like, everybody, the Alec Murdaugh case, which sort of gripped the nation. And she reached out to one of the attorneys who represents Alec, and he lives in South Carolina, and I'm here in Austin, and basically, they're on multiple coasts. And I just produced the show remotely, and the show is called the presumption. And it's all about the presumption of innocence. And we now live in a world where as soon as you read the headlines, you're already starting to make up your mind about whether or not this person is guilty. And their argument is that oftentimes, by the time the trial starts, everybody is in the assumption of guilt, not the presumption of innocence.

08:10
Speaker 2
And so it is a legal analysis podcast. They interview other defense attorneys, people that are kind of involved in the sort of peripheries of criminal prosecution. We did an episode about lie detectors with an expert about cell phone towers, DNA. And they look at it from a defense point of view, trying to kind of pick apart what you would think is the reality about, say, a lie detector and how you can beat a lie detector. And what's the reality of being able to do that?

08:42
Speaker 1
Right.

08:45
Speaker 2
I thought for sure beating a lie detector would be possible. Like, I heard you just literally, you just squeeze your butt. You could pass the test. Oh, I've heard that. But I found out that they actually have a butt pad sensor that you sit on.

09:00
Speaker 1
It will measure if you squeeze your butt. I've never heard. Okay.

09:05
Speaker 3
But I have a friend, an actual friend, who decided to be a cop after years of maybe living a different kind of life, decided to be a cop and did pass the lie detector test and had to.

09:24
Speaker 1
Really? Yeah.

09:25
Speaker 3
And he said he just slowed his breathing, like mind over matter, and he passed the light.

09:34
Speaker 2
As far as I could tell, mind over matter would be the only way to do it, because the way that this guy described it is that these tests are measuring the. Like, this is my version of what he said, but they're measuring the synapses going off in your brain before you've even said the word. So if I say the word horse, you just think of a horse in your head, and it kind of works like that. So even if you think that you're saying it, if you've already thought it's too late. And the whole idea of taking your time and slowly responding, slowly slowing your breathing, it doesn't work like that. There's timers you have to answer in a set amount of time.

10:14
Speaker 3
But people have passed lie detector tests and then been proven guilty, like, by DNA. So, I mean, that's why they're not admissible in court. Thank you for the word admissible.

10:27
Speaker 1
Why aren't they admissible in court?

10:28
Speaker 3
None of this is an exact science. That's the problem.

10:31
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's all crazy now. They have genetic genealogy where they'll be able to find you out from your distant relatives.

10:41
Speaker 3
Stupid relatives that went on fucking 23 and me. Didn't they understand there was a murderer in the family that needs to remain anonymous? My God.

10:50
Speaker 2
Right? Have some decency.

10:53
Speaker 1
What else? That's been interesting, that I'm sure you've gotten some DNA stuff, or how do.

11:02
Speaker 3
They fight the DNA of these defense attorneys?

11:05
Speaker 2
These damn defense attorneys. Again, I think it's really about just proving, like trying to prove that it's not an exact science and trying to know just because they have something called I think it's called contact DNA or touch DNA. There's a big case happening right now about Brian Koberger. Don't know if you guys have heard of that.

11:24
Speaker 1
Yes.

11:24
Speaker 3
Oh, the Idaho guy.

11:25
Speaker 2
Yeah, the Idaho guy. And there's like a knife sheath. The knife holder was found under the person's body, and it contained DNA from Brian Coberger.

11:36
Speaker 1
Right on the snap.

11:39
Speaker 2
But one could argue that you could have that rubbed up against their clothing or they touched something that somebody else touched before then, and there's just ways to transfer it that it doesn't 100% mean that it was yours. And that's sort of at least my observations. You're trying to create reasonable doubt to just let you know that it's not 100%. And if it's not 100%, maybe you should go the other way on your decision.

12:08
Speaker 1
Right.

12:08
Speaker 3
But usually not, because usually there's a whole bunch of things that line up. Right. That they try to go. I was listening to, of course, like a dateline or something. That was, the defense attorneys were trying to argue the cell phone tower evidence and saying, well, it's not an exact science. And trying to get somebody to admit that just because the cell phone tower doesn't mean that you were necessarily there. But of course, in the case, there were several cell phone towers for several places. It was like the place where the murder happened and then the place where he buried the body and where something happened with a dog. And it was like, so, okay, maybe if it all relied one cell tower, but then when you're talking about three, that would be the biggest coincidence.

12:55
Speaker 3
Yeah, but the defense always tries to go, well, there's coincidences happen.

13:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly. And then the defense world, they go, that's a bad fact. They just call that a bad fact.

13:05
Speaker 1
Oh, really?

13:06
Speaker 2
I don't even quite get what that's supposed to mean, but that sounds pretty bad to me. That's for sure.

13:11
Speaker 3
Do you ever just roll your eyes at that stuff?

13:14
Speaker 2
No, I don't. No. Because honestly, I believe in the mission of the show, which is to ultimately kind of preserve the justice system. And if you are convicted or if you are accused of a crime, you would want a fair trial. And it is kind of crazy. I mean, it's obviously harder and harder to find, like, an impartial jury, people who've never heard any of the facts of the case. It's really hard to do that these days, especially with the Internet and things like that. But it's kind of bullshit if six people have already made up their mind before they've even looked at the paperwork of the case.

13:49
Speaker 1
Right.

13:51
Speaker 2
That's the part to me that I can get behind and understand. Like, again, I write a ton of stories about horrible people who do the worst things imaginable, and they deserve to fucking rotten hell. Sorry if we're not allowed to cuss.

14:05
Speaker 1
No, you can cuss. Yeah.

14:08
Speaker 2
I produced the show.

14:09
Speaker 1
I produced episodes of the show.

14:10
Speaker 2
I know. So I am in no way, like a pro defendant kind of person, but I do think that a lot of times, we make a lot of assumptions, and it's not fair if it's in the matter of the courts, that should not come into play.

14:27
Speaker 3
Do you ever think, though, and I mean, this is the most obvious question ever, but do you ever think some of these criminals, that it's pretty much proven? Like, let's just say they admit to it and it's just a heinous crime and it's not just a false confession, but it's like something that, you know, they actually really knew the facts of the case or whatever, and then there's dna or whatever. Do you ever feel like. And let's just say it's a horrible crime against murdering children or babies, and then you get the defense that's, like, really trying to poke holes and trying to find any way to defend this person. Do you ever just feel like, how does that person sleep at night knowing that there's a chance they could get somebody out that will for sure go do something?

15:12
Speaker 3
You know what I mean? Like a serial killer. Like, somebody has to defend that person, and when it's really obvious that they did it, but they still have to mount a defense, do you ever feel like, God, that's got to be the hardest job ever?

15:24
Speaker 2
I mean, it's definitely a very difficult job, and they get a horrible reputation for that reason. I mean, even my dad is an attorney. He started as a defense attorney, and he over time, became a plaintiff's attorney because he had a really hard time, like, looking himself in the mirror when he was a defense attorney, just feeling like he screwed over people who didn't need to have that happen to them. And so I can definitely see that side of it. But again, what you're talking about where it's like, the person has obviously done it and they're just putting everybody through this, making them relive it, that is the worst of the worst.

16:04
Speaker 2
But I would say that the core of the defense attorney's job is a little bit on the other side of the scale, which is more like sort of a disenfranchised person who they've had a really hard time in life, and maybe they did do something terrible, but they deserve a chance to try to get out, even if it was something terrible. I don't know. It's kind of hard to put it into words, I guess part of what's fascinating about the whole topic in general, while we all like these crime stories, there is a little bit of a gray area sometimes.

16:34
Speaker 3
Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and see if you have any specific cases to tell us about.

16:42
Speaker 1
All right, we're back. Boy, so much to talk about. I love this stuff.

16:47
Speaker 3
Were there any cases that they covered that you were like, thought one way, but then hearing the defense attorneys talk, you were like, oh, maybe I was wrong.

16:57
Speaker 2
I have to get back to you.

16:58
Speaker 1
On that one I want to ask you about. I'm fascinated.

17:05
Speaker 2
Let me be clear. I do not know anything other than what everybody else who just watches tv and watches the docuseries and things like that. Now I have zero insider information, even though this guy is a host of the show. But it's not like I'm getting a deep dive or learning anything at all.

17:22
Speaker 1
Right. But were talking about, like Alex Murdoch, for instance. His trial was in the hometown of every. How do you get a fair, let's say obviously he did do it, bubba. It's chicken. But let's say that didn't happen. Let's say he could have been innocent, but yet he looked really guilty. How come they had the trial there? I thought, we wondered that.

17:54
Speaker 2
I don't know if you're aware of that. This is still ongoing even though it's ended. There is a whole thing happening right now about tampering with the jury. And was it a fair trial?

18:06
Speaker 1
Right.

18:06
Speaker 2
And that was one of the big arguments is like, how do you find twelve people who don't know this story, especially when it's in the hometown and involves one of the most influential figures of that town? Of course, everybody knows about it.

18:21
Speaker 3
And also there's been a lot of documentaries about it. How do you find someone who doesn't have Netflix?

18:26
Speaker 1
So what is the deal with that?

18:28
Speaker 2
That's what the defense is kind of arguing, right? They're like that. It's bullshit. And in this particular case, the head of the jury, like the clerk of the court, who you could say is almost like a dead mother to the jurors, like, try to brings them in and out. And apparently, according to documents that were filed, she made up her mind that he did it and was kind of the whole time just being like, all right, people, we all know that he did it. Let's just get up and get home. And whether or not people believed this woman, they still heard what she had to say. And it's all influencing the decision that's being made.

19:07
Speaker 1
Right.

19:08
Speaker 2
They're arguing for, like, a retrial, basically. But again, the same thing is going to pop up, like, how do you retry this case when even more people.

19:16
Speaker 1
Now know this case?

19:17
Speaker 2
I didn't know the story.

19:21
Speaker 1
Wow.

19:21
Speaker 3
I feel responsible because I've personally discussed it with quite a few people.

19:26
Speaker 1
You're sending them.

19:29
Speaker 2
But Kaylin also had me prepare some of the true crime stories that I've worked on. Tell you guys a little bit about. And actually, I will say that this first one that I'll tease a little bit is the season premiere of this year's sword and scale show. So if you have sword and scale, plus the episode just came out on Sunday. And if you are on the main feed, it comes out this Sunday. And this was a story that I found to be pretty interesting, which is to say that when people get old, we just expect that old people are going to die one day. And especially if it happens in a retirement community.

20:12
Speaker 2
Somebody coming home with their groceries and then being found on the floor of their kitchen with no visible injuries to them and some groceries that are just sitting on the countertop. Everybody just assumes that old woman had a heart attack or died, like any other kind of senior citizen would go. And this story that I dove into deals with that exact opening, except that the children noticed in the days that followed that jewelry was missing from their mom grandmother's apartment, including her wedding ring. And over the course of a couple of months, a couple of other elderly women were found dead and again, assumed to be of natural causes. And it wasn't until another woman was attacked by a guy pretending to be, like, a compassionate care worker, tried to smother her with a pillow.

21:05
Speaker 1
Oh, my God.

21:07
Speaker 2
He survived. And essentially, they tried to catch up to this mysterious man. And as the story unfolds, you find out that he has been doing this for a very long time.

21:20
Speaker 1
Wow.

21:21
Speaker 2
Lot of elderly women who were all killed by this guy.

21:25
Speaker 1
Wow. That's diabolical.

21:28
Speaker 2
Really creepy stuff.

21:30
Speaker 1
I mean, I got to hand it to him. It's pretty smart. I'm not, like, taking sides here. No, but it makes sense. Don't attack the young, vibrant mom that's at home alone going for a jog, because then it's going to catch up to you. Go for the elderly that do it in the old tickers.

21:51
Speaker 3
Got to go sometime.

21:52
Speaker 1
1Ft.

21:52
Speaker 2
Well, they actually have like footage from the Walmart parking lot. And this dude would just car and just park his car with a view of the handicap spots.

22:03
Speaker 1
Wow.

22:04
Speaker 2
And he'd like follow them in and like, oh, ma'am, let me help you with the cart. Oh, let me help you. And you could just watch this guy just in the background just silently following these women all over Walmart. It really makes you think like that could be terrifying.

22:20
Speaker 3
But he didn't try to kill them at Walmart. He followed them back home.

22:27
Speaker 1
Wow.

22:28
Speaker 2
And then try to smother them with a pillow.

22:30
Speaker 3
So to people's house. To their house. Or to like retirement.

22:34
Speaker 2
Retirement.

22:35
Speaker 3
Nursing homes.

22:36
Speaker 2
So nursing homes. So there's a whole other layer to the story of people who work in these retirement communities that see this guy loitering around and they don't do anything about it because they just aren't thinking that he's really a danger.

22:51
Speaker 3
Of course they're thinking, oh, how nice. Gladys has a visitor. She hasn't had many visitors.

22:57
Speaker 2
All right, so that's this newest sword and scale.

23:01
Speaker 1
I have a question. So when you're looking for these stories, you want to find the stories that have good audio. Like have that, have the audio from the interrogation. Is that always like you look for or video? So it's not just a story. It's got the, you can hear the interrogation.

23:18
Speaker 2
That's sort of the hook of sword and Scale is that we fill out the Freedom of Information act requests and we actually track and get the audio from the stories themselves. But there is another variation of the show that recently came out called Sword and Scale nightmares. And rather than being hour long episodes with all of the audio, they're half hour episodes and it's just narration. It's just the story. So what that means is that now I can do cases that don't have incredible audio crazy stories from really any point in time, which is a good transition for another story that I'd like to tell.

23:59
Speaker 1
Please tell us.

24:00
Speaker 2
Tell us.

24:01
Speaker 3
This is an episode of a dream come true.

24:06
Speaker 1
What are you doing next Monday?

24:08
Speaker 3
This is so old school for us.

24:11
Speaker 1
Yes. Okay. Go, Matt, go.

24:14
Speaker 2
Okay, so this is on the sword and scale nightmares feed. This is one of, it's weird to say my favorite episodes because it's such a fucked up story, but it's a good one.

24:21
Speaker 1
Yeah.

24:22
Speaker 4
Let me just cut episode real here and say that Matt does these all the time. And on the water cooler, he's always like, kind of talking about his cases, and he gets so excited over these horrible, horrific nightmare cases, and his face gets all giddy. We always make fun of him for like, jesus, Matt, calm down. There's a bunch of dead.

24:38
Speaker 1
I remember. I remember specifically talking to you at the warehouse years ago, and I'm like, I need something to listen to. And you're like, do you like true crime? And I was like, yes. I was like, done and done. And that's what started me on the true crime like podcast, because there's so many other good ones. Okay, so go ahead.

24:58
Speaker 2
Well, I was going to say, speaking of the show that we do with Kalyn, he has a pond cleaning business, but there have been casualties. And he therefore has his own segment called Sword and scales about some really nasty fish murders.

25:14
Speaker 1
You don't even want to know.

25:16
Speaker 4
I think there's been one or two FCL Patreon episodes where I've detailed the various investigations that have gone on in my pod.

25:26
Speaker 2
Sword and scale nightmares story is called going for a spin. And this is going back to the.

25:35
Speaker 3
That's my alley.

25:38
Speaker 1
Yes.

25:38
Speaker 3
Sorry.

25:39
Speaker 2
Well, as the country was celebrating its bicentennial, a bunch of people got together and made a thousands of mile long bicycle path. And it was called bike Centennial 76. It was a very successful event. People riding on their bikes from Oregon to Boston or something on the offset.

25:59
Speaker 1
I don't remember that. Where was the bike? How does the bike trail go?

26:02
Speaker 2
Was from what state to it started in Oregon? I honestly can't remember which one it goes to because the people in the story don't get very far.

26:11
Speaker 1
Okay.

26:12
Speaker 3
Shit.

26:13
Speaker 2
But essentially, 1976, big successful year. There was a guidebook. And in 1977, these two college sorority sisters, I don't know if they were in a sorority together, but these two friends from college, they decide with limited experience that they are going to take this bicycle trip together. It's months long camping, but you're getting to see nature. You go through ten different states, and it was just sort of like this romantic idea that just had the open road ahead of you. So these 219 year old girls, they're on this path starting in Oregon. They're going to go east, and they meet up with this married couple who are clearly like much more experienced bikers than they are. And after about a week, it's obvious that the two girls are holding this couple back.

27:00
Speaker 2
So the married couple says, listen, we're just going to go separate ways. They go 20 miles and the two girls have their little guidebook, and they see that about 15 miles, which is a lot easier for them to do. There is an overnight park called Klein Falls State park. And they take the trek to Klein Falls State park. And when they get there, they find out that it's for day use only. You're not supposed to spend the night there. Their guidebook was wrong, but now it's too late, and it's getting dark.

27:32
Speaker 1
Yeah.

27:33
Speaker 2
And so the two of them decide to set up a tent and stay the night by this river. And in the middle of the night, a truck comes burning into their tent, pins down. One of the two girls, she, while she's pinned under this truck, hears her friend and this, like, thumping, nasty, gashing sound. And the woman who's pinned under the truck suddenly feels relief as the truck is moved away from her. And then she hears the footsteps of a guy approaching, and he stands over her with an axe in his hands, and she cannot remember his face. All she can remember was that he was a handsome cowboy. And she begs for her life, and he walks away and lets her.

28:19
Speaker 1
Wow.

28:20
Speaker 2
She goes up to her friend, who's been struck in the head several times with an axe, but miraculously, another car has come into the day park campsite and manages to get the two of them to a hospital. The woman who was struck in the head makes it through, but she has no memory of what happened. And the woman who was pinned by the car, who begged for her life. She remembers everything except for who did it, what this guy actually looked like, and a five foot six child molester kind of guy who's in prison, admits to the crime, but it is not the guy that she remembers. She remembers, like a handsome cowboy.

29:06
Speaker 1
Okay.

29:07
Speaker 2
Now, this case is never prosecuted. Cold case, no suspects, no clues, nothing.

29:14
Speaker 3
This woman, by the way, imagine your memory of somebody who just tried to murder your friend and you. Is that he's handsome?

29:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. Was he wearing a cosplay?

29:26
Speaker 3
It wasn't half bad looking.

29:30
Speaker 2
15 years go by, and this woman has been battling some psychological issues, as you can imagine, and she decides that she's going to go back to Oregon and solve the case herself. And she wrote an incredible memoir where she basically does just that. And I essentially adapted her book into the episode of the sword and Skill night.

29:52
Speaker 1
Wow. That's great. So they found the guy.

29:58
Speaker 2
I want to kind of tease it a little bit so that I don't give away necessarily everything. But I will say that it is a somewhat satisfying ending in that it kind of goes back to what we're all talking about, which is it really does seem like that's the guy, that they did find the guy, but there's also parts of the whole case that you just kind of never know. But it's truly like a real life campfire, axe murderer in the woods kind of ghost story, but it's a real story. Incredible story of survival of this one woman, too.

30:32
Speaker 3
I'm going to ask you guys a question. Why do you think it is this is just never the other way around? There are never like, oh, a guy decides to go on a hike by himself and just gets murdered by some random woman with an axe. It's always women alone. What is that bloodthirst that men have to go and rape and murder women the second they're alone? It's crazy to me that there are so many bad men that women can't be in a stairwell alone. Like, if you're just walking down the street alone at night, your game for got to learn some guy to rape and murder you. But it scares me that you can't think about going.

31:17
Speaker 3
I mean, that no woman would ever go camping by herself or with a girlfriend somewhere remote by themselves, because for fear not of being killed by a bear, but of some guy going, oh, good, women alone. Let me rape and kill them. Why is that?

31:34
Speaker 2
I don't know. And actually, there was another point of the story early on when the two girls, before they went on the bike ride, they are just, like, practicing doing a bike ride somewhere else. And they had set up their tent, and at the campsite, there was, like, a creepy dude who was just kind of just making dick jokes and being a little bit too uncomfortably flirty with them. And one of the girls had this idea that we should turn the tent around so that you would think the opening of the tent would be facing the river or facing the rest of the campers, but we're going to put the opening on the other side.

32:10
Speaker 2
And sure enough, that night, while they were falling asleep, they saw handprints on the side of their tent where the zipper would normally be of this dude trying to get into their tent.

32:21
Speaker 1
Oh, my God. These girls have bad luck at campsites.

32:24
Speaker 2
Yeah, really?

32:25
Speaker 3
It's not bad luck.

32:27
Speaker 1
It's bad men. That's crazy.

32:29
Speaker 2
No, but I think, I mean, for all the obviously, like, a size and strength thing, it's fucked up.

32:36
Speaker 1
It's really fucked up.

32:38
Speaker 2
Plenty of true crime stories of crazy women, but not like, not in the.

32:41
Speaker 3
Same way women all, like, every episode of Snapped or whatever, women kill their husbands, they kill their rival for their.

32:55
Speaker 1
Lover, the other woman.

32:56
Speaker 3
They kill family members. They kill their brother. I mean, their abusive uncle. But women are not. There aren't sexual crimes. They're just randomly going and trying to attack a guy and have sex with them.

33:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. Well, let's take a quick. Let's take a break and let's get back to some other stories on that note. All right, we're back.

33:21
Speaker 3
This is the best time ever.

33:22
Speaker 1
I know. Matt, do you have one more?

33:25
Speaker 4
Well, just really quickly, I wanted to ask, like, where did you find that? You said she wrote a book. Is that just research? Oh, here's a true crime book. Did you read the book? Did you then look into if that story had been told? How exactly does that develop into an episode?

33:40
Speaker 2
Yeah, great question. I generally am looking for. I start with just a kernel of an idea, and then I want to see if there is a story that's kind of like that. So, for example, this is a story I remember when I was a kid. This is a quick side note. When I was a little kid, my family and I went to Yosemite. And when we got there, I went to the hotel. I turned on the tv, and there was a news flash about an axe murderer that just murdered a scientist living in Yosemite. And that night, my dad not really knowing or giving a shit was like, let's take a walk around the campground. Walk around the hotel at nighttime. And I was, like, having a fucking heart attack. So that has always stayed with me. Now that story has been covered.

34:27
Speaker 2
I ended up finding. I was going to cover it, and then I saw that there's, like, a hulu docu series that's about that case. But when I was typing in Axe murder campsite, I stumbled across this other story, and I just saw, like, a little headline about what's called the Klein Falls axe attack. And I was like, oh, that sounds kind of interesting. And so from there, I like Wikipedia, Google search that. And then eventually found, oh, this woman wrote a book about it. And then it just kind of goes from there. Some of the sword and scale ones where you need the audio. I'm honestly just looking at YouTube for cases that are online that have audio. That's usually like a good.

35:09
Speaker 1
What if you put in your Google search?

35:11
Speaker 4
I'm just like, there's an FBI van sitting outside of mascots right now.

35:15
Speaker 2
I know search is insane. It really is. I mean, it just depends. Like I said, like, axe murderer campsite. That would definitely be one. I wanted to do a story about like an exorcism. I feel like there's got to be murders that involve exorcism. There's a really famous one that they turn into a movie. But I found a truly horrifying story about a priest who killed a baby because he was trying to perform an exorcism.

35:39
Speaker 1
Oh, my God.

35:39
Speaker 2
And it's so messed up. But then my Google search becomes all about the details of that case to try to find reliable new sources and contacts.

35:48
Speaker 1
Right. Wow.

35:50
Speaker 2
So anyway, kayla, I don't know if that answers your question.

35:52
Speaker 4
What's your algorithm? What kind of videos are popping up on yours? Is it all like true crime, little shorts and stuff like that?

35:59
Speaker 2
In fact, you may recall on an episode of Water Cooler, I tried to share some video on YouTube, and you guys all saw similar videos or videos I've been looking at on the right hand side, and it was disturbing.

36:09
Speaker 1
What about pedophile and stuff like that, too? Yeah.

36:14
Speaker 2
I mean, occasionally I have covered stories like, mean to me. Obviously, we're looking for stories that are about the darkest parts of humanity, but my interests are more in the kind of slasher horror movie adjacent kind of stories.

36:31
Speaker 1
Right.

36:32
Speaker 2
Some of the other writers can really get into the true horrors of interpersonal relationships and things like that, which I've done some stories like that.

36:41
Speaker 1
But, yeah, Matt, you're too nice for that kind of stuff. You want to keep it more slasher, more axe murdery. Yeah, I get it.

36:49
Speaker 2
I got to compartmentalize a little bit. I become, like, a temporary expert. As I've been retelling you these stories today, I've got a bunch of notes in front of me. I had to go back and read what I wrote because once I've turned in an episode, I want that shit out of my head.

37:08
Speaker 4
It's funny that you say that because way back in the day, I remember filling in for you on doing a sword and scale covering some case, and you were like you were out of town, something. Hey, can you just look up the details of this and kind of host this episode? And I remember it was a case that they kind of made a horror movie about called don't breathe, where these teenagers break into this guy's house and they go into his basement, then he kills them.

37:30
Speaker 3
Oh, yeah, that's the famous one.

37:32
Speaker 4
Yeah. And there's literally audio of this guy, like, killing these teenagers in his. I can remember to this day, it's so horrible.

37:42
Speaker 3
We've covered that on rewind.

37:45
Speaker 4
That one still gives me chills. Like, just thinking about that one episode.

37:48
Speaker 3
That'S the castle defense or whatever.

37:52
Speaker 2
That's right. Stand your ground.

37:53
Speaker 3
Stand your ground.

37:54
Speaker 1
Some good at the castle. Yes.

37:56
Speaker 2
So let me do one more for you guys.

37:58
Speaker 1
Yes.

37:58
Speaker 2
And this is one that has not come out yet. I've turned it in. It's probably going to come out later in the summer or something. I don't know. There's a bunch of great episodes in the summer. My goal for this, the show has been plotted out.

38:13
Speaker 1
He's.

38:13
Speaker 2
He's got a lot of really talent.

38:15
Speaker 1
Just real quick, how long does it take to cover to write it, to do one story?

38:20
Speaker 2
I mean, it takes me a few. It takes me a couple of months of work. There's probably 40 to 60 hours of research before I even start outlining. I will say it used to take me a little bit longer because when I would help build the episodes out, I would do a lot of music and things like that. But the process behind the scenes has changed a little bit. It's a little easier to kind of submit stories without having to do a bunch of post production work on them. But I would say I checked. I'm averaging about five stories a year, which is not prolific compared to some of the other people who do this work.

39:01
Speaker 4
Does that include the nightmare ones, too, though?

39:03
Speaker 2
Yeah, that includes those. And those are a little bit shorter. Not as much research ahead of time. Some of the ones with, like, the big trials, I have to watch every second of the trial to try to see what, to me, is actually important to the story and how to really tell it anyway. Okay, share one more. One more for you guys. My goal for this story was to do what jaws did for the ocean. I wanted to do that for ride sharing services.

39:34
Speaker 1
Oh, my God. Keep in mind we have teenagers that take ride. Share.

39:40
Speaker 2
Well, okay, I'll just tease a little bit. So this is a story from actually just a couple of years ago, 2019, in downtown Columbia, South Carolina. Really famous bar district called Five Points. Sort of like, I don't know, Sunset Boulevard or something. Just like a lot of stuff happening down there. And these college girls are celebrating the end of their senior year, about to have the greatest time of their life. And this girl, her name is Samantha Josephson, she was out partying with her friends. She wanted her boyfriend to come and visit, but he was going to be visiting the following weekend. It was a long distance relationship. And so he's like, I'm not going to be able to come out tonight, but you should go out and have a good time with your friends. And she's got a lot on her mind.

40:33
Speaker 2
Some personal things with her family. And ultimately she decides she is going to go home for the night. And so she calls her boyfriend as she's waiting for an Uber. And she finally sees the car that's supposed to take her home. She gets into the car. She's hung up with her boyfriend by now. And on security camera, the car drives away. And this is the last time that this girl has ever seen again because turns out it was not an Uber driver. It was a guy kind of stalking the downtown area and saw a confused girl.

41:10
Speaker 1
Yeah.

41:11
Speaker 2
And he was so excited that his car literally jumps the curb as it's careening into the parking spot in front of her. But she's so distracted that she just gets into the car. And he had child safety locks that prevented her from even rolling the windows down. And I don't want to say what happened to her, but it's not good. Let's just say that. And this guy is so guilty. So guilty. But the security footage only captured the car, and you could not tell who was driving the car. And so, bringing this all full circle to the beginning of our conversation today, the defense in this particular case is fascinating as they try to explain how somebody dressed like our guy, wearing his clothing, took his car and committed this act and brought the car back to him.

42:08
Speaker 2
And there's no way that it could be our guy. And like were saying at the beginning, just somebody who's so obviously guilty, forcing everybody to relive this because they are just claiming innocence in the face of complete absurdity.

42:23
Speaker 1
Anyway, is it fascinating story case that started the say my name law.

42:28
Speaker 2
That is correct. That is the very one.

42:30
Speaker 1
Exactly.

42:31
Speaker 2
What's my name?

42:32
Speaker 1
What's my name?

42:32
Speaker 2
Which is what the family of the victim essentially said, before you get into a car, you just need to ask, what's my name? And they should be able to know your name, otherwise, it's not your driver.

42:43
Speaker 1
Right.

42:43
Speaker 2
And they're also responsible. You'll notice now that ride sharing services have big light up displays of the uber logo or the lyft logo. And that's another part of the legislation that this family unfortunately, had to try to bring to light.

42:59
Speaker 1
Right. Yeah, I remember. That was a horrible story. But that guy's in jail, right?

43:04
Speaker 2
What's that?

43:05
Speaker 1
That guy's in jail, right?

43:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, he's in jail. Yeah, he is in jail. But if you are not familiar with it, later this summer, it'll be a sword and scale.

43:14
Speaker 1
Wow.

43:15
Speaker 2
Real careful with this ride shares.

43:18
Speaker 1
I'm so proud of you.

43:20
Speaker 3
You're doing the Lord's work.

43:21
Speaker 1
Yes, you are.

43:23
Speaker 2
Thank you. Yes. Researching serial killers is most certainly what the Lord intended.

43:28
Speaker 1
Right.

43:29
Speaker 3
And how's the wife?

43:31
Speaker 2
She's doing great. She's a production accountant on the bachelor. The bachelorete.

43:37
Speaker 1
Oh, she is.

43:38
Speaker 2
Yeah. She's been doing that for a long time now, so she's doing real well. We got a puppy about a year ago when the dog was ten weeks old, so now she's one years old. And what kind? It's like a collie cattle mix. We're not exactly sure. Yeah, but she's like 35, 40 pounds. Her name is Tiki. Yeah, we still have taco, so we got Tiki and Taco.

44:00
Speaker 1
And taco. That's so cute.

44:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. We've just been taking her to dog training classes, and there's a really cool off leash dog park that we go to with her all the time. And that's honestly been, like, a bulk of my days when I'm not writing or working, is just trying to keep this little one year old ball of energy under control.

44:21
Speaker 1
I'm so proud of you and so happy for you.

44:25
Speaker 3
Thank you for coming.

44:27
Speaker 1
Please and come again soon. And we love talking to you. When does the episodes, what's the schedule of which show?

44:35
Speaker 3
Episode?

44:36
Speaker 2
They're all just kind of random. So the presumption that show drops every Tuesday, and I am on air for that show as well, if you like the sound of my voice. Also, as mentioned, the water cooler, me and my boys, my squirrel of digital buds, we've been doing that for over a decade. At this point, that's twice a week. Not necessarily the same days every week, but generally, like Tuesday, Thursday, we do movie nights and things like that as well. And then lastly, yeah, sword and scale. And sword and scale nightmares. That's pretty periodical. They're like once every two weeks pretty much, unless you're a premium member, and then it's every week. But like I said, there's a number of mine. I got about 25 stories that are out there for people to check out.

45:18
Speaker 4
How do they know if it's your story? Does it say it in the show description?

45:21
Speaker 2
They don't.

45:22
Speaker 1
Okay. There's just no way. If you follow Matt on Facebook, don't you post?

45:27
Speaker 2
Yeah, follow me on Twitter. I put out from time to time. People ask me, and I'll tweet out, like, episode numbers and things like that for people who want to hear. I'm also on Twitter. Or x rather.

45:36
Speaker 1
Yes. Okay.

45:36
Speaker 2
Matt Fondalier.

45:38
Speaker 1
Oh, Matt, thank you so much. We love you so much. I love you guys, too.

45:43
Speaker 2
This is awesome.

45:43
Speaker 1
Please come again and give my love to the wife and to the.

45:47
Speaker 2
I absolutely will.

45:48
Speaker 1
All right. Thanks, Matt. Bye.

45:50
Speaker 2
Mad care, guys.

45:51
Speaker 1
All right, everybody. Thanks for listening. All right, check out waterfall letting go our.